Horological Meandering

ThomasM
[PuristS]
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Not sure what you are disagreeing with, Ling?

"Thomas, I am afraid I can"t agree that it is considered the medium grade work."

Hi, Ling,

What I wrote was,

"As much as I love the Lange Anniversary, the quality of the enamel dial would be considered medium grade, at best, in the pre-1950's era." (emphasis added)

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with? Are you trying to state that modern fired enamel dials can compare, in general, with fired enamel dials from the 1950's and before? If so, I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

I agree, there is a huge range of variability with fired enamel, from any period, and from any brand; this is the nature of the process. But part of the GENERALIZED quality statement on a brand, or indeed of any generalized broad based statement, is that the range of quality is narrower and more consistent, and of consistently higher quality, from a "higher quality" brand or producer or enameller.

Without this, the general, comparative term "higher quality" becomes absurd and nonsensical.

Implicit in the term "higher quality" are

a. Part process - consistency;

b. part of this is after the fact quality control and very rigourous rejection rates.

The first part - process - can be further broken down into

1. the amount of skilled and experienced labour available and applied, and

2. the technical processes available (again, for example, the use of now prohibited toxic chemicals)

If one were to compare the range of in spec, acceptable fired enamel dials of today, in particular of the Lange Anniversary (why am I naming the Lange Anniversary specifically? I'll explain later) and compare them to standards of acceptability from the 1950's and earlier, the specs for today would be considered that which is acceptable for MEDIUM GRADE brands and model ranges in the 1950's and before period.

I'm sorry, again, I'm not sure what part of this is disputable or disagreeable? Historical fact is historical fact. I'm not referring to individual "best of" specimens versus each other.  In that case, individual and especially good period Gruen watches (or Mido or Cyma or Omega or Longines or ...) can be compared, favourably, with Vacheron and Patek, and again, renders the whole notion and practice of speaking of brands and not of individual pieces, absurd and nonsensical.  In a meaningful discussion among serious hobbyists, one cannot (should not) flip flop randomly between specific pieces and generalized brands or other broad category - the parameters of the discussion and definition of working terms should be spelled out, agreed, and then used consistently.

That said, I had much hands on and personal experience with a couple of Lange Anniversary pieces; both had quite a bit of pitting and unevenness, and one even had a little bleeding of the red in the XII.

I showed these pieces to some experienced modern collectors, and some who were very experienced with vintage fired enamel dials. All would have rejected these specimen.

I then showed the pieces to two senior executives in Lange; one would not comment on it other than to say, "those are in spec, and are the best possible with current methods and materials."

The other, off the record, went on to  explain and confirm that which I already gathered (detailed above)  and acknowledged that the current standards are not what he would like to see either, but limitations are limitations.

I am not bashing Lange, and certainly not the Lange Anniversary, and giving other examples from the modern period as being not "up to expectations" achieves I don't know what...

It is what it is; and the individual buyer needs to make their own decisions if this is acceptable. I am preaching neither that it is, nor that it isn't.

Cheers,

TM

ps: PLEASE don't project more into my words than I intended; stating that today's fired enamel standards are "medium grade" when compared to standards from periods when

1. lead and mercury were acceptable, even legal, to use in the process of making fired enamel

and

2. when labour costs and labour allocation allowed an enameller to sand off, smooth, and relayer and refire, over and over again

is a more than fair and generous statement based on objective standards.

This applies to the Lange, this applies to PP, VC, AP, even Breguet and Jaquet Droz, and that is the context of my comments and intentions.

With all due respect to Donze, Ms. Rohr, Ms. Porchet, Mr. Merczel, et al.

Let me be 100% clear - The work of Donze, Ms. Rohr, Ms. Porchet, Mr. Merczel, et al. are to be respected, and given the limitations today, their work is very impressive. GIVEN THE LIMITATIONS today...

I would be very surprised if they themselves would disagree, and certainly if they or someone else expert and/or experienced with the work and the history of fired enamelling would like to refute my comments, I stand ready to learn and be corrected.

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